VBIN's oil stock thread.

[fenders53]

If seems to be sourced by greenie talking people like me. The political power of the woke is real, but so are Eric's demand projection graphs. Do you know what XOM break even oil price is? By break even I mean enough to maintain Div and very modest exploration without new debt. Would that be mid 50s? In any event you've had a great month. Economy could be back for real in 2-3 quarters.

[vbin]

(11-27-2020, 07:14 AM)fenders53 Wrote: If seems to be sourced by greenie talking people like me. The political power of the woke is real, but so are Eric's demand projection graphs. Do you know what XOM break even oil price is? By break even I mean enough to maintain Div and very modest exploration without new debt. Would that be mid 50s? In any event you've had a great month. Economy could be back for real in 2-3 quarters.

I think it's different for their different plants. I read in an article that $25 for a plant in Gayana.

[fenders53]

It suppose it does vary widely. Probably matters if you are trying to pump at 80 or 100% corporate wide, how full local storage is or isn't at any given time.

[EricL]

Some interesting thoughts on the recovery from a message board I follow.

A few days ago, I posted my argument that about 8 mmbpd of oil demand is missing due to travel issues, and will ALL come back in 12-18 months.
 
But I wanted to articulate my virus model a little more.
 
Some very smart folks (including the smartest of all, our own Doom) are still looking at weekly oil inventories trying to gauge demand and market tightness.  Normally this would be ok, buttt... right now, oil demand is basically an upside down virus chart.  That's it.  Bad virus numbers mean fewer vacations, fewer visits to the parents, fewer trips to the malls and restaurants.  And the virus number are bad right now...
 
So I think the smart thing to do, is to look at forward looking virus models, not backward looking oil demand reports.
 
And here's the thing; we have a fixed end-date for the pandemic. It's April 2021.  Why?  Coronaviruses are *INTENSELY* seasonal.  Crowded indoor spaces, low vit D, etc.  But the case for April 2021 is even stronger than that.  Herd immunity from infection is coming, maybe as soon as February.  Mass vaccination will be ramping up, too.  Initially mass vaccination will be ineffective, because it will be targeted at vulnerable shut-ins (i.e., not the people spreading), but by April the vaccination will be hitting spreaders too.  Either way, by April the virus cases will be crashing to zero due to seasonality, and we will have a six month grace period for mass vaccination before the weather turns unfavorable again.  Small changes in the vaccine schedule won't matter given the April seasonality.
 
Enter the Biden campaign. (Don't want to be political, but it must be noted)  Biden has promised a first 100 day mask mandate (FDR impersonator!)  But the real reason is introduce a placebo that is already being taken, and take credit for favorable weather.  Scorched earth, delay vaccine, trash economy, and kill as many as possible until January, then take credit for the nice weather.  The overriding point is that Biden's team has the same virus model I do, and they want credit.
 
So I've argued that oil demand will come back in 12-18 months.  That's the base base.  But, but, but, what if *ALL EIGHT MILLION COME BACK BY APRIL*???  We could have the most amazing summer travel season in history, next year.  And oil could hit $60, or even $100 next year, depending on how strong the demand is, and how much excess money supply there is.
 
My base case is still for a slower recovery of 12-18 months.  The reason is there will be stickiness.  Residual fear, anti-maskers unwilling to fly, Oceana still beating its citizens, vaccine cards, quarantines for the unvaccinated, etc.
 
But whenever the FEAR ends, the pandemic is going to be over in April.  And I am planning and investing accordingly.  Good luck!

[fenders53]

(12-04-2020, 09:22 AM)EricL Wrote: Some interesting thoughts on the recovery from a message board I follow.

A few days ago, I posted my argument that about 8 mmbpd of oil demand is missing due to travel issues, and will ALL come back in 12-18 months.
 
But I wanted to articulate my virus model a little more.
 
Some very smart folks (including the smartest of all, our own Doom) are still looking at weekly oil inventories trying to gauge demand and market tightness.  Normally this would be ok, buttt... right now, oil demand is basically an upside down virus chart.  That's it.  Bad virus numbers mean fewer vacations, fewer visits to the parents, fewer trips to the malls and restaurants.  And the virus number are bad right now...
 
So I think the smart thing to do, is to look at forward looking virus models, not backward looking oil demand reports.
 
And here's the thing; we have a fixed end-date for the pandemic. It's April 2021.  Why?  Coronaviruses are *INTENSELY* seasonal.  Crowded indoor spaces, low vit D, etc.  But the case for April 2021 is even stronger than that.  Herd immunity from infection is coming, maybe as soon as February.  Mass vaccination will be ramping up, too.  Initially mass vaccination will be ineffective, because it will be targeted at vulnerable shut-ins (i.e., not the people spreading), but by April the vaccination will be hitting spreaders too.  Either way, by April the virus cases will be crashing to zero due to seasonality, and we will have a six month grace period for mass vaccination before the weather turns unfavorable again.  Small changes in the vaccine schedule won't matter given the April seasonality.
 
Enter the Biden campaign. (Don't want to be political, but it must be noted)  Biden has promised a first 100 day mask mandate (FDR impersonator!)  But the real reason is introduce a placebo that is already being taken, and take credit for favorable weather.  Scorched earth, delay vaccine, trash economy, and kill as many as possible until January, then take credit for the nice weather.  The overriding point is that Biden's team has the same virus model I do, and they want credit.
 
So I've argued that oil demand will come back in 12-18 months.  That's the base base.  But, but, but, what if *ALL EIGHT MILLION COME BACK BY APRIL*???  We could have the most amazing summer travel season in history, next year.  And oil could hit $60, or even $100 next year, depending on how strong the demand is, and how much excess money supply there is.
 
My base case is still for a slower recovery of 12-18 months.  The reason is there will be stickiness.  Residual fear, anti-maskers unwilling to fly, Oceana still beating its citizens, vaccine cards, quarantines for the unvaccinated, etc.
 
But whenever the FEAR ends, the pandemic is going to be over in April.  And I am planning and investing accordingly.  Good luck!

This was a bigtime political piece rather than an investment thesis. Other than being foolish enough to allow politics to jade his investment thesis, overall I agree with his end predictions.   (Very same cats said the market would surely crash NOV 4th and many cashed out.  I know quite a few locally).  I adjusted my port for either election outcome.  I always do that because it works out almost always.  That aside, his theory has considerable merit, with just a few twists from my perspective.

-I do agree that corona-viruses are very seasonal, however about 4-5 southern states in fact got hit VERY hard in the August 20 time-frame.  Anyone have a theory why that happened?  Call it fake news but hospitals got hammered with Covid patients.  I have relatives working in those hospitals.  It happened.      

-I think there may be a lot of people like me.  I'm a little too old to be reckless so I'm not, but I am sick of this and will go on vacation next year.  150 people like me driving the car instead of flying is better for oil demand right?  That's a question, not a statement.  I believe many will fly but I'm not buying airline stocks. 

-IMO OPEC+ will be adding production/reducing curbs by spring, or cheating like the US if oil spikes.  Everyone knows they They can easily supply Covid demand on short notice but I think there should be enough summer demand to support consistent $45-$50 oil.  I no longer think oil will crash below $40 unless the next few months are horrible enough to lock down numerous large states.  That should keep all the big players solvent enough.

[vbin]

(12-04-2020, 11:19 AM)fenders53 Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 09:22 AM)EricL Wrote: Some interesting thoughts on the recovery from a message board I follow.

A few days ago, I posted my argument that about 8 mmbpd of oil demand is missing due to travel issues, and will ALL come back in 12-18 months.
 
But I wanted to articulate my virus model a little more.
 
Some very smart folks (including the smartest of all, our own Doom) are still looking at weekly oil inventories trying to gauge demand and market tightness.  Normally this would be ok, buttt... right now, oil demand is basically an upside down virus chart.  That's it.  Bad virus numbers mean fewer vacations, fewer visits to the parents, fewer trips to the malls and restaurants.  And the virus number are bad right now...
 
So I think the smart thing to do, is to look at forward looking virus models, not backward looking oil demand reports.
 
And here's the thing; we have a fixed end-date for the pandemic. It's April 2021.  Why?  Coronaviruses are *INTENSELY* seasonal.  Crowded indoor spaces, low vit D, etc.  But the case for April 2021 is even stronger than that.  Herd immunity from infection is coming, maybe as soon as February.  Mass vaccination will be ramping up, too.  Initially mass vaccination will be ineffective, because it will be targeted at vulnerable shut-ins (i.e., not the people spreading), but by April the vaccination will be hitting spreaders too.  Either way, by April the virus cases will be crashing to zero due to seasonality, and we will have a six month grace period for mass vaccination before the weather turns unfavorable again.  Small changes in the vaccine schedule won't matter given the April seasonality.
 
Enter the Biden campaign. (Don't want to be political, but it must be noted)  Biden has promised a first 100 day mask mandate (FDR impersonator!)  But the real reason is introduce a placebo that is already being taken, and take credit for favorable weather.  Scorched earth, delay vaccine, trash economy, and kill as many as possible until January, then take credit for the nice weather.  The overriding point is that Biden's team has the same virus model I do, and they want credit.
 
So I've argued that oil demand will come back in 12-18 months.  That's the base base.  But, but, but, what if *ALL EIGHT MILLION COME BACK BY APRIL*???  We could have the most amazing summer travel season in history, next year.  And oil could hit $60, or even $100 next year, depending on how strong the demand is, and how much excess money supply there is.
 
My base case is still for a slower recovery of 12-18 months.  The reason is there will be stickiness.  Residual fear, anti-maskers unwilling to fly, Oceana still beating its citizens, vaccine cards, quarantines for the unvaccinated, etc.
 
But whenever the FEAR ends, the pandemic is going to be over in April.  And I am planning and investing accordingly.  Good luck!

This was a bigtime political piece rather than an investment thesis. Other than being foolish enough to allow politics to jade his investment thesis, overall I agree with his end predictions.   (Very same cats said the market would surely crash NOV 4th and many cashed out.  I know quite a few locally).  I adjusted my port for either election outcome.  I always do that because it works out almost always.  That aside, his theory has considerable merit, with just a few twists from my perspective.

-I do agree that corona-viruses are very seasonal, however about 4-5 southern states in fact got hit VERY hard in the August 20 time-frame.  Anyone have a theory why that happened?  Call it fake news but hospitals got hammered with Covid patients.  I have relatives working in those hospitals.  It happened.      

-I think there may be a lot of people like me.  I'm a little too old to be reckless so I'm not, but I am sick of this and will go on vacation next year.  150 people like me driving the car instead of flying is better for oil demand right?  That's a question, not a statement.  I believe many will fly but I'm not buying airline stocks. 

-IMO OPEC+ will be adding production/reducing curbs by spring, or cheating like the US if oil spikes.  Everyone knows they They can easily supply Covid demand on short notice but I think there should be enough summer demand to support consistent $45-$50 oil.  I no longer think oil will crash below $40 unless the next few months are horrible enough to lock down numerous large states.  That should keep all the big players solvent enough.

Why not buy oil leap calls then? Fender changing sentiments on oil.is big news. Lol.

I am more curious to know about what you and Eric will be investing in oil from this point on given the recent semi rally on oil.

[EricL]

(12-04-2020, 11:47 AM)vbin Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 11:19 AM)fenders53 Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 09:22 AM)EricL Wrote: Some interesting thoughts on the recovery from a message board I follow.

A few days ago, I posted my argument that about 8 mmbpd of oil demand is missing due to travel issues, and will ALL come back in 12-18 months.
 
But I wanted to articulate my virus model a little more.
 
Some very smart folks (including the smartest of all, our own Doom) are still looking at weekly oil inventories trying to gauge demand and market tightness.  Normally this would be ok, buttt... right now, oil demand is basically an upside down virus chart.  That's it.  Bad virus numbers mean fewer vacations, fewer visits to the parents, fewer trips to the malls and restaurants.  And the virus number are bad right now...
 
So I think the smart thing to do, is to look at forward looking virus models, not backward looking oil demand reports.
 
And here's the thing; we have a fixed end-date for the pandemic. It's April 2021.  Why?  Coronaviruses are *INTENSELY* seasonal.  Crowded indoor spaces, low vit D, etc.  But the case for April 2021 is even stronger than that.  Herd immunity from infection is coming, maybe as soon as February.  Mass vaccination will be ramping up, too.  Initially mass vaccination will be ineffective, because it will be targeted at vulnerable shut-ins (i.e., not the people spreading), but by April the vaccination will be hitting spreaders too.  Either way, by April the virus cases will be crashing to zero due to seasonality, and we will have a six month grace period for mass vaccination before the weather turns unfavorable again.  Small changes in the vaccine schedule won't matter given the April seasonality.
 
Enter the Biden campaign. (Don't want to be political, but it must be noted)  Biden has promised a first 100 day mask mandate (FDR impersonator!)  But the real reason is introduce a placebo that is already being taken, and take credit for favorable weather.  Scorched earth, delay vaccine, trash economy, and kill as many as possible until January, then take credit for the nice weather.  The overriding point is that Biden's team has the same virus model I do, and they want credit.
 
So I've argued that oil demand will come back in 12-18 months.  That's the base base.  But, but, but, what if *ALL EIGHT MILLION COME BACK BY APRIL*???  We could have the most amazing summer travel season in history, next year.  And oil could hit $60, or even $100 next year, depending on how strong the demand is, and how much excess money supply there is.
 
My base case is still for a slower recovery of 12-18 months.  The reason is there will be stickiness.  Residual fear, anti-maskers unwilling to fly, Oceana still beating its citizens, vaccine cards, quarantines for the unvaccinated, etc.
 
But whenever the FEAR ends, the pandemic is going to be over in April.  And I am planning and investing accordingly.  Good luck!

This was a bigtime political piece rather than an investment thesis. Other than being foolish enough to allow politics to jade his investment thesis, overall I agree with his end predictions.   (Very same cats said the market would surely crash NOV 4th and many cashed out.  I know quite a few locally).  I adjusted my port for either election outcome.  I always do that because it works out almost always.  That aside, his theory has considerable merit, with just a few twists from my perspective.

-I do agree that corona-viruses are very seasonal, however about 4-5 southern states in fact got hit VERY hard in the August 20 time-frame.  Anyone have a theory why that happened?  Call it fake news but hospitals got hammered with Covid patients.  I have relatives working in those hospitals.  It happened.      

-I think there may be a lot of people like me.  I'm a little too old to be reckless so I'm not, but I am sick of this and will go on vacation next year.  150 people like me driving the car instead of flying is better for oil demand right?  That's a question, not a statement.  I believe many will fly but I'm not buying airline stocks. 

-IMO OPEC+ will be adding production/reducing curbs by spring, or cheating like the US if oil spikes.  Everyone knows they They can easily supply Covid demand on short notice but I think there should be enough summer demand to support consistent $45-$50 oil.  I no longer think oil will crash below $40 unless the next few months are horrible enough to lock down numerous large states.  That should keep all the big players solvent enough.

Why not buy oil leap calls then? Fender changing sentiments on oil.is big news. Lol.

I am more curious to know about what you and Eric will be investing in oil from this point on given the recent semi rally on oil.

I'm not changing anything going forward. I currently have 6.5% energy weighting in my DGI portfolio spread between CVX, EOG, KMI, and XOM.

Other than reinvesting dividends I'll just leave them alone and let them do their thing on the recovery. 

I'll think about trimming when oil hits $80 =).

[fenders53]

(12-04-2020, 11:47 AM)vbin Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 11:19 AM)fenders53 Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 09:22 AM)EricL Wrote: Some interesting thoughts on the recovery from a message board I follow.

A few days ago, I posted my argument that about 8 mmbpd of oil demand is missing due to travel issues, and will ALL come back in 12-18 months.
 
But I wanted to articulate my virus model a little more.
 
Some very smart folks (including the smartest of all, our own Doom) are still looking at weekly oil inventories trying to gauge demand and market tightness.  Normally this would be ok, buttt... right now, oil demand is basically an upside down virus chart.  That's it.  Bad virus numbers mean fewer vacations, fewer visits to the parents, fewer trips to the malls and restaurants.  And the virus number are bad right now...
 
So I think the smart thing to do, is to look at forward looking virus models, not backward looking oil demand reports.
 
And here's the thing; we have a fixed end-date for the pandemic. It's April 2021.  Why?  Coronaviruses are *INTENSELY* seasonal.  Crowded indoor spaces, low vit D, etc.  But the case for April 2021 is even stronger than that.  Herd immunity from infection is coming, maybe as soon as February.  Mass vaccination will be ramping up, too.  Initially mass vaccination will be ineffective, because it will be targeted at vulnerable shut-ins (i.e., not the people spreading), but by April the vaccination will be hitting spreaders too.  Either way, by April the virus cases will be crashing to zero due to seasonality, and we will have a six month grace period for mass vaccination before the weather turns unfavorable again.  Small changes in the vaccine schedule won't matter given the April seasonality.
 
Enter the Biden campaign. (Don't want to be political, but it must be noted)  Biden has promised a first 100 day mask mandate (FDR impersonator!)  But the real reason is introduce a placebo that is already being taken, and take credit for favorable weather.  Scorched earth, delay vaccine, trash economy, and kill as many as possible until January, then take credit for the nice weather.  The overriding point is that Biden's team has the same virus model I do, and they want credit.
 
So I've argued that oil demand will come back in 12-18 months.  That's the base base.  But, but, but, what if *ALL EIGHT MILLION COME BACK BY APRIL*???  We could have the most amazing summer travel season in history, next year.  And oil could hit $60, or even $100 next year, depending on how strong the demand is, and how much excess money supply there is.
 
My base case is still for a slower recovery of 12-18 months.  The reason is there will be stickiness.  Residual fear, anti-maskers unwilling to fly, Oceana still beating its citizens, vaccine cards, quarantines for the unvaccinated, etc.
 
But whenever the FEAR ends, the pandemic is going to be over in April.  And I am planning and investing accordingly.  Good luck!

This was a bigtime political piece rather than an investment thesis. Other than being foolish enough to allow politics to jade his investment thesis, overall I agree with his end predictions.   (Very same cats said the market would surely crash NOV 4th and many cashed out.  I know quite a few locally).  I adjusted my port for either election outcome.  I always do that because it works out almost always.  That aside, his theory has considerable merit, with just a few twists from my perspective.

-I do agree that corona-viruses are very seasonal, however about 4-5 southern states in fact got hit VERY hard in the August 20 time-frame.  Anyone have a theory why that happened?  Call it fake news but hospitals got hammered with Covid patients.  I have relatives working in those hospitals.  It happened.      

-I think there may be a lot of people like me.  I'm a little too old to be reckless so I'm not, but I am sick of this and will go on vacation next year.  150 people like me driving the car instead of flying is better for oil demand right?  That's a question, not a statement.  I believe many will fly but I'm not buying airline stocks. 

-IMO OPEC+ will be adding production/reducing curbs by spring, or cheating like the US if oil spikes.  Everyone knows they They can easily supply Covid demand on short notice but I think there should be enough summer demand to support consistent $45-$50 oil.  I no longer think oil will crash below $40 unless the next few months are horrible enough to lock down numerous large states.  That should keep all the big players solvent enough.

Why not buy oil leap calls then? Fender changing sentiments on oil.is big news. Lol.

I am more curious to know about what you and Eric will be investing in oil from this point on given the recent semi rally on oil.

Don't get too excited buddy.  I merely said they won't crash lol.  I'd need a dip to add any new shares.  My thesis remains.  I don't think the ME can't supply any minor increase in demand with EASE. You need a serious change in demand to change that.  I really did think $30 oil would happen this winter and it's a bad number.  There will likely be a few places where a tight Covid lockdown makes sense this winter. Most states will fight off the temptation IMO.

[fenders53]

(12-04-2020, 12:11 PM)EricL Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 11:47 AM)vbin Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 11:19 AM)fenders53 Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 09:22 AM)EricL Wrote: Some interesting thoughts on the recovery from a message board I follow.

A few days ago, I posted my argument that about 8 mmbpd of oil demand is missing due to travel issues, and will ALL come back in 12-18 months.
 
But I wanted to articulate my virus model a little more.
 
Some very smart folks (including the smartest of all, our own Doom) are still looking at weekly oil inventories trying to gauge demand and market tightness.  Normally this would be ok, buttt... right now, oil demand is basically an upside down virus chart.  That's it.  Bad virus numbers mean fewer vacations, fewer visits to the parents, fewer trips to the malls and restaurants.  And the virus number are bad right now...
 
So I think the smart thing to do, is to look at forward looking virus models, not backward looking oil demand reports.
 
And here's the thing; we have a fixed end-date for the pandemic. It's April 2021.  Why?  Coronaviruses are *INTENSELY* seasonal.  Crowded indoor spaces, low vit D, etc.  But the case for April 2021 is even stronger than that.  Herd immunity from infection is coming, maybe as soon as February.  Mass vaccination will be ramping up, too.  Initially mass vaccination will be ineffective, because it will be targeted at vulnerable shut-ins (i.e., not the people spreading), but by April the vaccination will be hitting spreaders too.  Either way, by April the virus cases will be crashing to zero due to seasonality, and we will have a six month grace period for mass vaccination before the weather turns unfavorable again.  Small changes in the vaccine schedule won't matter given the April seasonality.
 
Enter the Biden campaign. (Don't want to be political, but it must be noted)  Biden has promised a first 100 day mask mandate (FDR impersonator!)  But the real reason is introduce a placebo that is already being taken, and take credit for favorable weather.  Scorched earth, delay vaccine, trash economy, and kill as many as possible until January, then take credit for the nice weather.  The overriding point is that Biden's team has the same virus model I do, and they want credit.
 
So I've argued that oil demand will come back in 12-18 months.  That's the base base.  But, but, but, what if *ALL EIGHT MILLION COME BACK BY APRIL*???  We could have the most amazing summer travel season in history, next year.  And oil could hit $60, or even $100 next year, depending on how strong the demand is, and how much excess money supply there is.
 
My base case is still for a slower recovery of 12-18 months.  The reason is there will be stickiness.  Residual fear, anti-maskers unwilling to fly, Oceana still beating its citizens, vaccine cards, quarantines for the unvaccinated, etc.
 
But whenever the FEAR ends, the pandemic is going to be over in April.  And I am planning and investing accordingly.  Good luck!

This was a bigtime political piece rather than an investment thesis. Other than being foolish enough to allow politics to jade his investment thesis, overall I agree with his end predictions.   (Very same cats said the market would surely crash NOV 4th and many cashed out.  I know quite a few locally).  I adjusted my port for either election outcome.  I always do that because it works out almost always.  That aside, his theory has considerable merit, with just a few twists from my perspective.

-I do agree that corona-viruses are very seasonal, however about 4-5 southern states in fact got hit VERY hard in the August 20 time-frame.  Anyone have a theory why that happened?  Call it fake news but hospitals got hammered with Covid patients.  I have relatives working in those hospitals.  It happened.      

-I think there may be a lot of people like me.  I'm a little too old to be reckless so I'm not, but I am sick of this and will go on vacation next year.  150 people like me driving the car instead of flying is better for oil demand right?  That's a question, not a statement.  I believe many will fly but I'm not buying airline stocks. 

-IMO OPEC+ will be adding production/reducing curbs by spring, or cheating like the US if oil spikes.  Everyone knows they They can easily supply Covid demand on short notice but I think there should be enough summer demand to support consistent $45-$50 oil.  I no longer think oil will crash below $40 unless the next few months are horrible enough to lock down numerous large states.  That should keep all the big players solvent enough.

Why not buy oil leap calls then? Fender changing sentiments on oil.is big news. Lol.

I am more curious to know about what you and Eric will be investing in oil from this point on given the recent semi rally on oil.

I'm not changing anything going forward. I currently have 6.5% energy weighting in my DGI portfolio spread between CVX, EOG, KMI, and XOM.

Other than reinvesting dividends I'll just leave them alone and let them do their thing on the recovery. 

I'll think about trimming when oil hits $80 =).

That's a great idea.  I'm trimming my T shares when they hit $60. 

[vbin]

(12-04-2020, 12:40 PM)fenders53 Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 12:11 PM)EricL Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 11:47 AM)vbin Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 11:19 AM)fenders53 Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 09:22 AM)EricL Wrote: Some interesting thoughts on the recovery from a message board I follow.

A few days ago, I posted my argument that about 8 mmbpd of oil demand is missing due to travel issues, and will ALL come back in 12-18 months.
 
But I wanted to articulate my virus model a little more.
 
Some very smart folks (including the smartest of all, our own Doom) are still looking at weekly oil inventories trying to gauge demand and market tightness.  Normally this would be ok, buttt... right now, oil demand is basically an upside down virus chart.  That's it.  Bad virus numbers mean fewer vacations, fewer visits to the parents, fewer trips to the malls and restaurants.  And the virus number are bad right now...
 
So I think the smart thing to do, is to look at forward looking virus models, not backward looking oil demand reports.
 
And here's the thing; we have a fixed end-date for the pandemic. It's April 2021.  Why?  Coronaviruses are *INTENSELY* seasonal.  Crowded indoor spaces, low vit D, etc.  But the case for April 2021 is even stronger than that.  Herd immunity from infection is coming, maybe as soon as February.  Mass vaccination will be ramping up, too.  Initially mass vaccination will be ineffective, because it will be targeted at vulnerable shut-ins (i.e., not the people spreading), but by April the vaccination will be hitting spreaders too.  Either way, by April the virus cases will be crashing to zero due to seasonality, and we will have a six month grace period for mass vaccination before the weather turns unfavorable again.  Small changes in the vaccine schedule won't matter given the April seasonality.
 
Enter the Biden campaign. (Don't want to be political, but it must be noted)  Biden has promised a first 100 day mask mandate (FDR impersonator!)  But the real reason is introduce a placebo that is already being taken, and take credit for favorable weather.  Scorched earth, delay vaccine, trash economy, and kill as many as possible until January, then take credit for the nice weather.  The overriding point is that Biden's team has the same virus model I do, and they want credit.
 
So I've argued that oil demand will come back in 12-18 months.  That's the base base.  But, but, but, what if *ALL EIGHT MILLION COME BACK BY APRIL*???  We could have the most amazing summer travel season in history, next year.  And oil could hit $60, or even $100 next year, depending on how strong the demand is, and how much excess money supply there is.
 
My base case is still for a slower recovery of 12-18 months.  The reason is there will be stickiness.  Residual fear, anti-maskers unwilling to fly, Oceana still beating its citizens, vaccine cards, quarantines for the unvaccinated, etc.
 
But whenever the FEAR ends, the pandemic is going to be over in April.  And I am planning and investing accordingly.  Good luck!

This was a bigtime political piece rather than an investment thesis. Other than being foolish enough to allow politics to jade his investment thesis, overall I agree with his end predictions.   (Very same cats said the market would surely crash NOV 4th and many cashed out.  I know quite a few locally).  I adjusted my port for either election outcome.  I always do that because it works out almost always.  That aside, his theory has considerable merit, with just a few twists from my perspective.

-I do agree that corona-viruses are very seasonal, however about 4-5 southern states in fact got hit VERY hard in the August 20 time-frame.  Anyone have a theory why that happened?  Call it fake news but hospitals got hammered with Covid patients.  I have relatives working in those hospitals.  It happened.      

-I think there may be a lot of people like me.  I'm a little too old to be reckless so I'm not, but I am sick of this and will go on vacation next year.  150 people like me driving the car instead of flying is better for oil demand right?  That's a question, not a statement.  I believe many will fly but I'm not buying airline stocks. 

-IMO OPEC+ will be adding production/reducing curbs by spring, or cheating like the US if oil spikes.  Everyone knows they They can easily supply Covid demand on short notice but I think there should be enough summer demand to support consistent $45-$50 oil.  I no longer think oil will crash below $40 unless the next few months are horrible enough to lock down numerous large states.  That should keep all the big players solvent enough.

Why not buy oil leap calls then? Fender changing sentiments on oil.is big news. Lol.

I am more curious to know about what you and Eric will be investing in oil from this point on given the recent semi rally on oil.

I'm not changing anything going forward. I currently have 6.5% energy weighting in my DGI portfolio spread between CVX, EOG, KMI, and XOM.

Other than reinvesting dividends I'll just leave them alone and let them do their thing on the recovery. 

I'll think about trimming when oil hits $80 =).

That's a great idea.  I'm trimming my T shares when they hit $60. 

If T's management can take a just a few logical decision, the company has 10x potential. That's a topic for saperate thread possibly.

Youtube influencers have started talking about oil and potential rally. Lol

[fenders53]

(12-08-2020, 11:37 PM)vbin Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 12:40 PM)fenders53 Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 12:11 PM)EricL Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 11:47 AM)vbin Wrote:

(12-04-2020, 11:19 AM)fenders53 Wrote: This was a bigtime political piece rather than an investment thesis. Other than being foolish enough to allow politics to jade his investment thesis, overall I agree with his end predictions.   (Very same cats said the market would surely crash NOV 4th and many cashed out.  I know quite a few locally).  I adjusted my port for either election outcome.  I always do that because it works out almost always.  That aside, his theory has considerable merit, with just a few twists from my perspective.

-I do agree that corona-viruses are very seasonal, however about 4-5 southern states in fact got hit VERY hard in the August 20 time-frame.  Anyone have a theory why that happened?  Call it fake news but hospitals got hammered with Covid patients.  I have relatives working in those hospitals.  It happened.      

-I think there may be a lot of people like me.  I'm a little too old to be reckless so I'm not, but I am sick of this and will go on vacation next year.  150 people like me driving the car instead of flying is better for oil demand right?  That's a question, not a statement.  I believe many will fly but I'm not buying airline stocks. 

-IMO OPEC+ will be adding production/reducing curbs by spring, or cheating like the US if oil spikes.  Everyone knows they They can easily supply Covid demand on short notice but I think there should be enough summer demand to support consistent $45-$50 oil.  I no longer think oil will crash below $40 unless the next few months are horrible enough to lock down numerous large states.  That should keep all the big players solvent enough.

Why not buy oil leap calls then? Fender changing sentiments on oil.is big news. Lol.

I am more curious to know about what you and Eric will be investing in oil from this point on given the recent semi rally on oil.

I'm not changing anything going forward. I currently have 6.5% energy weighting in my DGI portfolio spread between CVX, EOG, KMI, and XOM.

Other than reinvesting dividends I'll just leave them alone and let them do their thing on the recovery. 

I'll think about trimming when oil hits $80 =).

That's a great idea.  I'm trimming my T shares when they hit $60. 

If T's management can take a just a few logical decision, the company has 10x potential. That's a topic for saperate thread possibly.

Youtube influencers have started talking about oil and potential rally. Lol

There is a reason why I don't have a strong opinion on the short-term direction of oil stock prices.  If I knew that I wouldn't have lost money most every time I invested in oil.  You are closer to the end of the pandemic.  That is all that has changed for now.  I did think oil would revisit $30 this winter, and it still could though I view that far less likely than I did 90 days ago.  This is going to come down to how much liquidity will the world add to markets to lessen the pain?  And T is run by chimps.  OK, maybe that a little harsh.  I'm still in shock from the announcement to buy Direct TV at an obscene price like it was still 2005.  

[EricL]

China oil product exports down 36% MOM and 15%YOY YTD due to growing internal Chinese oil demand.

LINK