Cryptocurrencies

[rayray]

Well, believe it or not, years ago when I was battling my cancer I could do NOTHING but sleep, watch TV and read the Internet. Some how, I believe I heard about this Bitcoin on TV then found the website explaining it, how to mine it, buy it etc etc etc. At the time an average home pc was enough to mine it, to buy it I thought it was pennies on the dollar, for some reason I remember something like 5 or 6 cents per Bitcoin. I remember reading the purpose and reasoning behind BTC from this anonymous creator/developer. I almost pulled the trigger with 100 dollars and thought, wait a minute...I send this guy 100 and I download/save these BTC's on my laptop? He's anonymous? Needless to say all kinds of red flags went off and I thought SCAM. Backed away.

Presently, wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole, my brother-n-law is going big time, taking his teenage son along with him. Cryptocurrencies, new ones pop up every day. Not to mention they got away from their purpose. Too easy for them, all of them to be manipulated by pump and dump schemes, it's a dream for those that just to take your money through FOMO investing.

And to think the governments are going to let their FIAT money go bye bye? Forgetaboutit...it ain't happening. The IRS? Not paying your taxes? Forgetaboutit...

What I'm doing is putting some money towards the backbone behind it.....BLOCKCHAIN.

Years ago when waitresses and bartenders I knew were selling homes I told my buddy something is wrong, very wrong. I have the same feeling but I got it from father and son rather then bartenders and waitresses because I don't go to bars anymore.

[crimsonghost747]

(01-08-2018, 06:52 AM)rayray Wrote: Presently, wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole, my brother-n-law is going big time, taking his teenage son along with him. Cryptocurrencies, new ones pop up every day. Not to mention they got away from their purpose. Too easy for them, all of them to be manipulated by pump and dump schemes, it's a dream for those that just to take your money through FOMO investing.

And to think the governments are going to let their FIAT money go bye bye? Forgetaboutit...it ain't happening. The IRS? Not paying your taxes? Forgetaboutit...

I feel like agreeing with you. For a long term scenario... I see some uses... but I just don't think that it will be such a big revolution as some people imagine it to be. Then again, I did make the same conclusion back in the day and funnily enough, even with a tiny investment back in the day, we would both be ridiculously rich right now.

I didn't think it was a good long term investment then. I don't think it's a good long term investment now. But were ridiculous profits made with it? Damn right they were.. so who is to say that good profits won't be made in the future? I do feel like the bubble will burst... and it'll be a massive bubble. But when? And how high will we get before it happens?

I certainly don't plan on depositing any money into these. But I'll play around with that tiny amount that I have and see how it goes. :p When I left that in my harddrive it was worth maybe $10, now it's $1300, let's see if it's $10 or $10k in a few years.

[Roadmap2Retire]

(01-08-2018, 06:52 AM)rayray Wrote: And to think the governments are going to let their FIAT money go bye bye? Forgetaboutit...it ain't happening. The IRS? Not paying your taxes? Forgetaboutit...

What I'm doing is putting some money towards the backbone behind it.....BLOCKCHAIN.

While I agree partially, that governments will not go down without a fight...I am curious with this statement. How are you putting money towards the backbone, i.e., blockchain? Are you investing in stocks for blockchain exposure?

[rayray]

I understand how you feel, I get it. At a time I'd be right there with you.

My first individual stock investments we're Exxon, Paychex and Verizon. I then moved to foreign mutual fund investments and some Dot-Com stocks, I also cashed out and bought my first home. Needless to say I made horrible financial decisions. I should have kept all three stocks. After that, the dot com bust I was afraid to buy individual stocks, any of them, so I stayed with mutual funds. Eventually buying Markel (MKL) that I hold to this day. During the real estate/financial bust I was fighting cancer, didn't eat or work for over 6 months and saw my kplan/ira investments go from 212k to 104k...close buddies begging me to cash out and save what's left. I didn't care, all I wanted to do was "live" money did not matter. Now, of course, when I had a chance to buy BTC and invest 100 bucks, due to my circumstances I had less then 400 bucks in my checking account, it was a lot of money to me at the time, 100 bucks. My investment philosophy is to buy a quality company, at a fair price, look for that dividend and never sell (at least try not to sell). I've done well the last few years, maybe most of us who stayed the course. When I look at BTC and the likes I don't see what I might make but rather what I may loose. It's true, for the average Joe, and I'm a average Joe...making a million dollars is hard, the next hardest thing is not to loose that million dollars. My goal is to not loose that million dollars, my goal is to grow those dollars with my system that has treated me well. The cryptocurrency price fluctuations make me feel queasy, plus I like having easy access to my dollars. Some of my brother-in-law's money is not accessible for almost a year? What? GTFOH. Not my money. I made mistakes along the way, and I'll make some more mistakes, but I don't gamble, I didn't save 1 plus million by gambling or FOMO.

Anyone who made thousands or millions with crypto....great. But, do you know anyone who walked away with the cash in hand? I don't...because everyone I know is letting it ride, that's gambling not investing.

This cryptocurrency arena is being manipulated by crooks, to think otherwise is having blinders on...if I'm a crook, a smart crook I'm walking around with a boner right now, cause I'm doing a lot of...you know what. Decentralized digital investments...it's a crooks dream. People will make money but a lot of people will loose money too. Not me, I'm plugging away to 2 million without BTC and the likes.

[rayray]

R2R,

With Blockchain, I'm looking at traditional companies such as IBM, MSFT, Intel, Nividia and the financial sector. I believe these companies are going to invest and utilize Blockchain to benefit their businesses and stockholders.

Then there's Amazon, Google, Overstock.com...then the DLR's of the world will probably benefit too.

Many ways to invest that make me feel more comfortable then a crypto or these ico's that make my head spin. When I have a buddy that hasn't invested a dime, tell me let's get into crypto!!! And quite enthusiasticly...then I know it's a better investment to buy V or MA. JM2C

[crimsonghost747]

(01-08-2018, 09:16 AM)rayray Wrote: that's gambling not investing

This is exactly the way I view it. It is extremely risky and I think it's more than likely that at some point, no matter how careful you are, part of your cryptos will just disappear one way or another.

But. Gambling is fun! : That's what got me into this crypto stuff in the first place, I enjoy it. And yes I also bet on sports on a weekly basis. Why not, it's fun! (and yes, often I lose :p) Though I'd say that cryptos are a bit better than gambling, because mining gives you, at least if you fit a certain criteria (like for example my free electricity) an edge. At the casino the house always win, here you can be a tiny part of the house. :p

I share your skepticism, especially when we are talking about long term. But it doesn't stop me from being in the game. I'm having fun, I'm learning new things, I'm enjoying this. And if I lose every single dollar I have in cryptos, it won't matter since it all came from nothing in the first place.

[Roadmap2Retire]

(01-08-2018, 09:16 AM)rayray Wrote: I understand how you feel, I get it. At a time I'd be right there with you.

My first individual stock investments we're Exxon, Paychex and Verizon. I then moved to foreign mutual fund investments and some Dot-Com stocks, I also cashed out and bought my first home. Needless to say I made horrible financial decisions. I should have kept all three stocks. After that, the dot com bust I was afraid to buy individual stocks, any of them, so I stayed with mutual funds. Eventually buying Markel (MKL) that I hold to this day. During the real estate/financial bust I was fighting cancer, didn't eat or work for over 6 months and saw my kplan/ira investments go from 212k to 104k...close buddies begging me to cash out and save what's left. I didn't care, all I wanted to do was "live" money did not matter. Now, of course, when I had a chance to buy BTC and invest 100 bucks, due to my circumstances I had less then 400 bucks in my checking account, it was a lot of money to me at the time, 100 bucks. My investment philosophy is to buy a quality company, at a fair price, look for that dividend and never sell (at least try not to sell). I've done well the last few years, maybe most of us who stayed the course. When I look at BTC and the likes I don't see what I might make but rather what I may loose. It's true, for the average Joe, and I'm a average Joe...making a million dollars is hard, the next hardest thing is not to loose that million dollars. My goal is to not loose that million dollars, my goal is to grow those dollars with my system that has treated me well. The cryptocurrency price fluctuations make me feel queasy, plus I like having easy access to my dollars. Some of my brother-in-law's money is not accessible for almost a year? What? GTFOH. Not my money. I made mistakes along the way, and I'll make some more mistakes, but I don't gamble, I didn't save 1 plus million by gambling or FOMO.

Anyone who made thousands or millions with crypto....great. But, do you know anyone who walked away with the cash in hand? I don't...because everyone I know is letting it ride, that's gambling not investing.

This cryptocurrency arena is being manipulated by crooks, to think otherwise is having blinders on...if I'm a crook, a smart crook I'm walking around with a boner right now, cause I'm doing a lot of...you know what. Decentralized digital investments...it's a crooks dream. People will make money but a lot of people will loose money too. Not me, I'm plugging away to 2 million without BTC and the likes.

When you have $400 in your account, I wouldnt recommend putting 25% that money into anything, not bitcoin, not stocks, not bonds, not GICs or any other form of investment. Investments are risky no matter what. Stocks are risky as hell...just look at the valuations stocks are trading at today, none of it makes any sense whatsoever. Even one of the companies you mentioned, NVDA -- those valuations look complete bonkers to me, with the stock trading at ~15 P/S. During the dotcom bubble, investors were wiped out because they were buying companies with a P/S of 10. So, what kind of returns can someone see when buying stocks at 15 P/S?

Can bitcoin and other cryptos crash wiping out all the gains? Sure. No asset class is immune to human greed. In fact, the crypto world is going through a ~25-30% crash right now, as I type this. But at a mere $700B global market cap, the total crypto market is in its infancy and just a small drop in the ocean. What are global equities at these day? $83T? 

Having said that, I couldnt help but notice some incorrect statements towards the end of that post. There are a lot of cryptocoins that are scams. Of course, you should be careful with which ones you pick and invest in, just as you would not hand over money to any company, or accept any piece of paper as valid money. The cryptomarket makes it easy for scammers, but without any research and understanding, a blanket statement shouldnt be applied to cryptos like Bitcoin, Ethereum etc. These are not pre-mined coins that some "experts" claim to be, and just interested in FUDding the crowds.

[rayray]

I agree NVDA is astronomical in metrics, but as an investor I have an understanding as a business, presently and in the future. Would I buy today, no, probably not. But I won't sell either, not even to rebalance my portfolio.

I just don't trust decentralized investments, I'm old school and like some form of regulation and trust NYSE/SEC more then, say, Coinbase. I have more faith investing in V or MA then Ripple. Likewise, I'd put my money in Gold/Platinum/Silver then Bitcoin. I understand those investments better. I also find it worrisome when I see people I know for decades and others that are related wanting to or are putting their hard earned dollars in this investment medium.

Everyday I read about new ICO's....
I just believe that this crypto-industry is getting ripe to disappoint a lot of people. It's unsustainable in it's current state, what do most of these crypto's make? What kind of products? What do they sell? What's their service? Who is their customer base and why? How long has this company been in business? Why should I put money in Bitcoin vs Gold? Why buy Ripple vs V?

I do believe that crypto's will exist, I just don't believe that it will be this decentralized free from big government market.

Looking at the decentralized crypto-industry as a long term investor, I cannot find a reason to put my hard earned dollars into any of it, I just can't.

[crimsonghost747]

(01-08-2018, 02:05 PM)rayray Wrote: what do most of these crypto's make? What kind of products? What do they sell? What's their service? Who is their customer base and why? How long has this company been in business? Why should I put money in Bitcoin vs Gold? Why buy Ripple vs V? 

Well, it depends on which crypto you're talking about, while a lot of them are pretty similar they still have different functions and are designed for different things. What do they make? Well for one, the majority of cryptos (I noticed that bitcoin is not one of these anymore) allow for pretty much free and instant delivery of money to anywhere in the world.

Say I need to send $100 from Europe to the USA. My bank will charge me about $15 to do that, maybe $20. Then they will exchange it to dollars at a rate that is 1.5% lower than the current market rate. So I'll be paying between 16.5% and 21.5% in transfer fees and the transfer will take 3-4 days.

I could use Paypal. Where I'll pay 2-3% extra for the currency conversion and maybe 5% as transaction fees, so a total of 7-8% and it's almost instant.

Or I could use crypto where I'd pay something like $0.02 as a transaction fee, and if the receiver wants to change it to USD then he would pay about 0.2% for the exchange fee. If I wouldn't have crypto and needed to do the EUR -> crypto then that would be another 0.2% or so. And this would be just as fast as paypal.

Then there are cryptos who do this completely anonymously. And like it or not, privacy is a big thing for a lot of people. There are those who do it in a completely untraceable way... imagine the uses (not always legal :p) with that. How about using these wallets for online gaming... lot's of games have all sorts of micropayments. Instead of plugging in your credit card (where the company receiving the money always pays a fee) how about you just have a browser extension where you upload money and then you can use that to fund all the purchases in any of the games you play? Less fees, no need to put your credit card number anywhere etc. The banks are already looking to use these platforms internally because it would save them so much money, so why shouldn't we?

Once again, I don't really see these as investments, more like gambling. And I'm almost certain that at some point, one way or another, I'll lose a bit of money because of something like a transaction to a wrong adress or an exchange just disappearing etc. But the technology, and some of these coins (by no means all of them) have potential. Not potential to completely replace the current system but rather to offer more attractive ways of doing some things.

[rayray]

I guess I can't wrap my head around cryptocurrency as a whole because in theory the use is a great idea, but yet I don't see, at least the people I know, getting crypto's to use as a currency but rather as an investment. Cryptocurrency is almost a misnomer because they are all different with not all of them meant to be used as a currency. And if used as a currency, me personally, I don't want my currency fluctuating drastically, I like my currency evaluation stable. A dollar in my pocket to use is still worth a dollar the next day, sure I didn't make any money but my purchasing power is still a dollar and that's what I want in my currency. I also don't want to mess with digital/hard/soft wallets, I like my money in a FDIC backed account.

Are any of you guys actively using cryptocurrencies in daily life? To buy gas? Groceries? A cup of coffee? To pay rent or your mortgage?

[crimsonghost747]

(01-09-2018, 06:01 AM)rayray Wrote: Are any of you guys actively using cryptocurrencies in daily life? To buy gas? Groceries? A cup of coffee? To pay rent or your mortgage?

I personally don't use it yet. It's possible though. I've seen online services (like.. I bought a subscription for a VPN two days ago and they accepted bitcoin as a payment), I've seen grocery stores and cafes/bars in that accept it. You'd be surprised at the amount of places where you can pay with it nowadays. So out of the things you've listed... haven't seen a gas station that accepts it (though I wouldn't be surprised if one exists) but yes the rest you can do with it. Funny thing is, I can't do all of those in my city but I can do all of that within 200km. However I'll probably have to travel thousands of kilometers to find the first place that accepts dollars.

And just to be precise, those places only accept bitcoin, haven't seen any other cryptos being accepted. But as I said earlier, I don't view them (at least not bitcoin) as something that could replace our whole finance system in my lifetime. But to replace small parts of it... sure.

You have to remember that this is a whole new thing. Bitcoin has been around for less than 10 years, other cryptos for much shorter time. Fiat money has been used for over a thousand years. Now I'm not saying that we will switch from Fiat to cryptos... but I'm saying that at in the past we have switched from the exchange of goods to using precious metals and then again from those precious metals to a piece of paper with a number on it.

[crimsonghost747]

(01-09-2018, 06:01 AM)rayray Wrote: A dollar in my pocket to use is still worth a dollar the next day, sure I didn't make any money but my purchasing power is still a dollar and that's what I want in my currency.

But this is simply a question of the point of view, isn't it? To you a dollar is a dollar. To me a dollar is 0.838 euros, yesterday it was 0.835 euros, a year ago it was 0.947 euros. :p Currencies fluctuate too, everyone knows it's happening but not many people pay attention to it. And you the fluctuations, even with such a huge currency pair as the USD and EUR, are actually quite drastic. (I've noticed this very well since I get paid in USD and spend in EUR)